Kristiana Corona (00:31.032)
Hello everyone. And welcome to the worthy to lead podcast. I'm your host, Kristiana Corona. And I'm so glad that you could join us for the conversation today. Today, I have a special treat for you. We are going to talk to Alison Gretz, who is a design leader that I have worked with for many years. She is an inspiration. She has a really interesting journey through her career that I think you're going to find fascinating. And she's got some really amazing lessons for all of us on how to battle workplace toxicity and create an environment where everyone can thrive, where everyone is able to really be their authentic self and to drive results. so Alison is the best way I can describe her is that she's sort of like a design leader Beyonce. And she just has this incredible energy, this incredible enthusiasm.
This ability to actually take an idea and like fully activate it and bring it to life and create a dynamic team around her. So I can't wait for you to talk to her. If you've never met her before, I think you're going to be really inspired.
Here's a little bit more from Alison's leadership bio. Alison Gretz is a leadership coach and trainer working at the intersection of the future of how we work on digital products and leading healthy, high -performing teams of humans. Her training offerings include a design leadership accelerator and an entry -level manager course. Launching this fall is the Good Manager operating system, a collaborative tool for managers and their teams to create a healthy, impactful relationships and to battle toxicity in their workplace. She is on a mission to make leadership less lonely and more human centered. And who doesn't need that? She's accelerating us all towards more inclusive workplaces where everyone can thrive. Her background spans award-winning ad agencies to leading in-house product design for Target and rebuilding Shutterfly's internal creative team where she established and refined this manager operating system for herself, which is now the foundation of the work that she does. So that's a little taste of Alison You're gonna learn so much more. I'm so excited you joined us today. Let's dive in.
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Kristiana Corona (01:32.78)
Hi Alison! Welcome to the Worthy to Lead podcast! So before we started talking today, I gave my audience just a brief intro to kind of your leadership bio. but I would love to have you take a minute to go a little bit deeper and tell us your story.
Alison Gretz (01:45.698)
Perfect.
Kristiana Corona (02:02.454)
So who would you say you are? Where did you come from? And really what got you to where you are today, maybe in a nutshell.
Alison Gretz (02:09.679)
Yeah, pull back the curtain on what's not in the bio, right? Well, I don't think I say this in the bio that I'm originally from Scotland. I took a leap and moved countries when I was just 18 for college and following a boy at the time. And I ended up here in the Midwest in the States and very quickly, you know, was doing graphic design and digital design and coding in Flash and doing all of the things.
Kristiana Corona (02:13.364)
Exactly.
Alison Gretz (02:38.561)
Ultimately, I was a maker and just somebody who really enjoyed solving problems. I fell into an early career in advertising and marketing, really anybody who wanted a website. And then I say that I asked so many annoying questions that someone was like, you know, that's a career, right? You could be a UX designer. And that kind of paved the way to like continually asking the
Kristiana Corona (02:58.766)
That's the best.
Alison Gretz (03:05.953)
important questions, the hard questions, the why are we doing this? Will it actually impact the results we want? How do we make it happen? Negotiating, facilitating across people to make it happen. And then where you and I got to spend some time together, we were both really growing into director roles. And then I got fascinated by the people side of it and leading teams of people, especially
diverse, cross -functional, like very, very different teams to try to get the things we were making out into the world in ways that were really right for the end user and then also had tremendous business value. And then about a year ago, I took an entrepreneurial leap and I like to call myself independent or a solopreneur kinda, like I'm still figuring out the right words, but now I kind of have a portfolio career of...
Kristiana Corona (03:53.422)
of it.
Alison Gretz (03:59.279)
coaching and courses that I run online and then also some fractional work with startups.
Kristiana Corona (04:06.936)
So I may or may not have introduced you upfront as the Beyonce of design leaders.
Alison Gretz (04:14.703)
You may or may not have.
Kristiana Corona (04:18.391)
You just always struck me as someone who can take on so many things, who can just look in many different broad directions. And I think that's just so amazing. Like I appreciate that about your journey and we'll dig into that a little bit more further on. But I just, yeah, just wanted to let you know, I set the stage already. you.
Alison Gretz (04:31.671)
Wow. thank you.
Alison Gretz (04:37.199)
Well, I don't think I have like a personality like Sasha Fierce, but I don't think I can live up to that. But it's it's very, very kind of you to compare to Beyonce.
Kristiana Corona (04:45.07)
You are my Sasha Fierce of design. I love it. So you mentioned that we met back in 2014 at Target. I know it's crazy. It's been like 10 years. I'm so sorry. And I think we both started at Target like a month apart from each other. So.
Alison Gretz (04:59.043)
Yep. God, that makes me feel old, Christiana. Yep.
Alison Gretz (05:09.229)
Yeah, yeah, you were just ahead of me.
Kristiana Corona (05:12.63)
It was really amazing just being able to see your leadership journey grow over time. and like you mentioned, going from individual contributor to manager to director and so on. And you know, one thing that you and I've talked about is how hard it can be for that first time manager. When you're starting out, like one minute you are top of your craft. You are like just absolutely killing it as an individual contributor. And in the next minute.
you're like smacked in the face with this realization that I don't have all of these skills for this next level or I don't know what I'm doing or what is happening here. And it can be really hard for people. And so I'm just curious from your perspective, like, can you talk a little bit more about the transition and how that felt for you of going from an IC to a leader?
Alison Gretz (06:02.445)
Yeah, for sure. I mean, I honestly feel bad for the first few people that I managed officially because I had no idea what I was doing. And I remember kind of avoiding my intern at the time because I was just anxious about like, the right work getting done? Should I be doing it? I don't want to answer their questions because they always have questions. And I think we all start out as pretty terrible.
managers because there's not really a graceful transition or at least I've never seen one for somebody to go from, like you said, top of your craft because it usually is the high performers in their individual roles get tapped on the shoulder and like told, hey, you might have potential for management or it's people who are striving towards that and really want it but don't necessarily know why.
Kristiana Corona (06:48.065)
Exactly.
Alison Gretz (06:54.403)
they want it and if it really will be something that aligns with their skills or brings them joy on a day to day basis. And so you get this kind of pool of people stepping into management and then realizing or having these realizations that, my entire day is not my own now. Even if you had like commitments and responsibilities as an IC, you still had a chunk of your day typically that you could manage yourself.
and have heads down time. And then suddenly as a boss, you have no idea what you're walking into every day, let alone getting your strategic priorities done. So for me, it was a really rough transition. I started managing when I worked in advertising and kind of growing teams as new business came in. And so it was organic and I knew the clients and I had won the business. And then it was like, okay, now go hire people.
Kristiana Corona (07:24.3)
Right.
Alison Gretz (07:49.987)
but not a ton of training. My first performance reviews were terrible, full of bias, just really a learning moment. I'm grateful that I can now look back on it and say, yeah, those were things not to do. And a lot of us just model being a manager off of what we don't want to be like as well. And then there's this huge gap, gap in support. More and more, I'm seeing trainings be really gate -kept.
Kristiana Corona (08:10.818)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (08:17.143)
at a higher level than first time manager. And so you just kind of flounder a bit and hopefully you have a mentor and support around you organically, but this is not something that many organizations have figured out.
Kristiana Corona (08:20.514)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (08:31.362)
Yeah. Yeah. Well said. And I think, one of the things that I remember struggling with, as a first time manager was just that feeling like you needed to have all the answers. So kind of like your example with the intern, like, please do not ask me any more questions. I think over there, you know, you can't, you can't fake it till you make it in that regard as being a manager. Like you can't just pretend that you have the answers because everyone around you is really smart and they're going to know right away if you're just.
Alison Gretz (08:48.526)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (08:52.888)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (09:01.464)
pretending or making up an answer. So as you think about that aspect of it, how did you, well, and just the feelings of unworthiness, Sitting in that and knowing, I know I don't have the answer. I know that this is my first time doing this. I'm not going to be proficient at a performance review. So I'm building both my worthiness and my capability. So I'm curious for you, what helped you to...
Alison Gretz (09:24.804)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (09:29.046)
sort of make that transition from being that, that unworthy or capable person as a first time manager to feeling more confident and feeling more worthy to be able to do this job.
Alison Gretz (09:36.462)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (09:40.291)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, it's like a muscle that you have to build. And I honestly think the thing that accelerated me into confidence and competence, think worthiness or feeling worthy of it is still something that even 10, 15 years later, I'm still building. But competence and confidence came actually from work I was doing outside of my full -time employment because I decided
which was a few years or a couple of years before you and I met to start a nonprofit aimed at sparking tough, frank conversations around gender equality. And this was before Me Too. was right as the first Lean In book came out. And all of a sudden I was really at the, what's it called? Not the figurehead of a boat, but spearheading this initiative with huge sellout events. And we set up a nonprofit so that we could handle money.
Kristiana Corona (10:34.21)
Mm
Alison Gretz (10:40.717)
And all of a sudden I'm the president of a board and running a small business on the side of my full -time employment. And I loved it because I got to be a maker again and be, you know, putting a vision out into the world and iterating and building on it and learning so much, but being forced into a leadership role or not forced into a leadership role with that nonprofit, but I just kind of accidentally stepped up into it, if that makes sense.
Kristiana Corona (11:08.387)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (11:08.527)
And I'm never scared of a challenge. love a challenge because I love learning. And I always think if not me, then who, like, who's going to tackle this if I don't do it? And so they're there Minneapolis mad women was born. and all of a sudden I'm talking in front of rooms of 300 because the president of a nonprofit introduces the speaker, and then running, you know, this business. And so having that stretch.
Kristiana Corona (11:16.248)
Mm.
Alison Gretz (11:37.185)
really made then the day by day vocation management feel a lot easier and smaller and something that I could do and build my competence in over time.
Kristiana Corona (11:44.918)
Hmm.
Kristiana Corona (11:52.236)
Yeah, it's really amazing. I don't think I at the time knew how much of that you were learning on the fly while learning how to be a manager. mean, it's, it's amazing, but kind of to that point, like being thrown in the fire and having to figure these things out and having to lead at even a higher level and a more complex level.
Alison Gretz (12:01.803)
All of it.
Alison Gretz (12:13.272)
huh.
Kristiana Corona (12:13.691)
I'm sure that made some of the challenges of being a first time manager inside of a corporation where there's, you know, some fairly safe environment with like some guidelines on how to do some things feel a little bit more manageable.
Alison Gretz (12:28.931)
Yeah, yeah. And then when I moved to Target, I actually I had forgotten about this until just a second ago. I started out as a manager with a small team, and it was more formalized. And I really started to build a better management muscle, I think, with that formality. And then we had a huge reorg. And I was asked to step into a principal role. Do you remember that?
Kristiana Corona (12:52.311)
I do. I had the same exact situation. Yeah. Yeah.
Alison Gretz (12:54.809)
That's right. And I was like, am I taking a step sideways? Like, how am I thinking about this? But honestly, it was just the best year of my career, I think, getting to be so confident in my capabilities and unafraid to just lead and get in there. So then jumping in as a very senior IC, it was kind of like everybody move my way. I'm going to.
bring this team to awesomeness, and just really get some stuff done, which was a lot of fun.
Kristiana Corona (13:22.155)
You
Kristiana Corona (13:25.836)
Yeah, I think it's fascinating how a lot of people have trepidation or fear around taking different roles between IC and manager. Like, you know, if I take this one track and then I go back to being an AC, then does that mean that I'm off course or I'm failing in some way? And I agree with you a hundred percent that sometimes it's like the very best thing you can do because it forces you to regain your subject matter expertise to like go deeper.
to learn from all the smart people around you and better your craft. Like I remember I was so thankful to have a principal role because it allowed me to learn so much more about research, like UX research, and to get really deep into that. And then when it came time to lead again, you're like, I know what all these things are. I have done them myself. And so that credibility is there.
Alison Gretz (14:15.951)
Yeah, yeah, it also helped me really build the trust of the organization that I could and was ready to take on bigger, more complex, gnarlier things while I was performing at that level, like really well. And I do think what you were saying about, you know, we think we have to continuously climb this ladder all in one direction. I've been starting to talk about and write about this concept of your career being more of a playground.
Kristiana Corona (14:20.482)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (14:45.165)
and something that you can bring the joy back into it and make sure that how you're spending your days and your time and your energy is regenerative and something fun, even if you're building a muscle. Like I think of my kids learning to do the monkey bars, they can't do it right away. You know, they have to find maybe a smaller playground and sort of work up into it and build the muscles and then practice getting across. Like you've got to take these moments of building and learning.
Kristiana Corona (15:03.373)
Mm
Alison Gretz (15:14.519)
and then maybe you decide, the monkey bars aren't my thing anymore. I want to go down some slides or some swings or whatever's right for you, or just go make some friends and stand in the shade, whatever makes sense at that moment. but to help us release this idea that it's all one direction and that then it feels really bad and terrible if something goes wrong or we feel more stuck versus thinking of,
Kristiana Corona (15:30.464)
Thank
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (15:40.12)
Thank
Alison Gretz (15:41.935)
collection of really enriching experiences that we can do in any order we want to.
Kristiana Corona (15:46.178)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think the implicit feeling of that, like as you're describing a playground is so joyful and so free. It's like all of those heavy expectations that we put on ourselves to continuously drive upward and forward and you know, whatever that path is like that's gone. Like you can, you can go in any direction that you want. You can be interested in completely different things. And that's so beautiful.
Alison Gretz (15:58.329)
Bye.
Alison Gretz (16:18.649)
Yeah, well, and you say it's gone. But I don't think we've shed any of the expectations yet. And maybe in a couple of generations, it'll be a little bit different in terms of these expectations we we feel a need to fulfill, right and pre prior definitions of success. And most companies have changed, you know, pensions aren't a thing anymore. Longevity at companies and kind of automatic promotions are not a thing anymore.
Companies are flatter, managers are player coaches. Average tenure at a company is two and a half years. And so you're not really finding that same, like sort of sitting in one spot. And I think obviously there's exceptions to that rule and like where the stats come from Gallup, but yeah.
Kristiana Corona (16:56.578)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (17:15.128)
So, okay, going back to this idea that maybe we're not quite there yet and being able to shed this idea of having to climb a ladder. Like for yourself, as you've been going through your career and taking this more playground free approach, do you feel those expectations? Do you feel the freedom? Like how has it felt taking that approach?
Alison Gretz (17:23.407)
Mm
Alison Gretz (17:37.897)
I have felt both things. And I think much like any sort of human in our workplaces right now, I have absolutely had this ladder mentality or desire to get to the next step or the next level and kind of pursued that. And then there's been other times where that as a fallacy has kind of bit me in the butt.
And I've realized, I climbed the ladder. I did all the things I was supposed to do. Do I like this anymore? Am I getting to spend my days how I want to? Like on the outside, you might seem successful, but are you well? Are you happy? Are you having the impact that you want to? And so I think it's, for me has been a reassessment and then also getting used to having to reshed those expectations.
Even though I fully believe in the playground metaphor, I still fall into that trap of thinking about the next level and success as a linear line. It's something I have to remind myself is kind of a false construct these days. Am I getting meta?
Kristiana Corona (18:49.952)
Mm -hmm. Yeah. No, this is great. I'm just thinking personally, like how, how you can let go of something that is so ingrained in the culture. And I think one of the things that, that you called out though, is just following your interests or following your passions or wanting to learn across. And, you know, when we get so, laser focused on promotion being the only way we can show growth, is.
Alison Gretz (19:00.089)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (19:18.402)
for sure limiting because at some places there's, there's limited ability to constantly get a promotion every year, every couple of years. You know, that's just not a reality. And then second of all, like, is that really the way you're measuring your success? Like, does that make you feel alive and like you're constantly growing and like you're thriving and doing the things it's like much more about the experience of where you are today and what you're investing your time in. Right. Like I'm curious about your perspective on that.
Alison Gretz (19:20.057)
Disappointing.
Alison Gretz (19:45.379)
Yeah. Yeah, well, I think it's an easy trap to fall into, right? Because promotions, I mean, it feels great to get a promotion. It feels like recognition, you know, and it's very public and people congratulate for you. It's just like when you buy a house or you get married or you have that baby or whatever it is, it's a congratulatory life moment. And so it's definitely on a pedestal as this outward signal of growth.
and this outward signal of recognition. it's, I absolutely have wanted promos in the past. I think that's a very natural thing to do. But as you say, it's not as available as it used to be, even just 10 years ago. It's not as available. And so that process of really pinning your sights on that as your goal just leads to heartache and disappointment.
more often than not. And it is a mountain to climb in a lot of organizations, especially once you start getting pretty darn senior, there's not as many roles for you to step into. So I would, I love the questions that you just asked. We should add those to your show notes, right? Where it's like, is this really what you want? What are your other options? Like if this is one path, why do you want that path?
Kristiana Corona (20:57.732)
For sure.
Alison Gretz (21:06.489)
Like to just take a pause and check in with yourself and say, is this actually what I want? Or am I craving recognition? What are the other ways I can receive recognition? Have I told my boss that I'm craving recognition and this would make me feel valued, right? Have I said these things out loud? Have I asked for other things that fill whatever cup I'm trying to fill? And many times when you start to open the aperture,
beyond promotion, you start to see like, actually, my energy is really vibing over here. If I transfer departments and go learn this other discipline, not only am I scratching that itch right now, I'm actually making myself more marketable as a hire later on, or even as I go higher up. know, CEOs are not specialists, they're generalists. They've tried lots and lots and lots of different things. And I would just use that as an invitation to
Kristiana Corona (22:01.836)
Yes.
Alison Gretz (22:06.831)
try different things, keep gathering diverse experiences, and then that keeps your doors more open versus really focusing on up, up,
Kristiana Corona (22:17.88)
I love that. And I feel like that really aligns to the idea of taking whatever role you're in and treating it like you are the CEO or the director of your space. And if you treat it that way and you think about all the skills or all the dimensions that a leader or a CEO needs to think about, it really makes you realize how many different skills that you need to be successful. And so we're in
one corporate role, you may only need one specialized set of skills to get to the next level. eventually there is a ceiling to that. And there's an expectation that if you haven't already, Hey, you need to learn product management. You need to learn finance. You need to learn tech. You need to learn like all of these different aspects of how the business runs to effectively run a business. And I love that you learned that so early on. And I, I'm sure that that has influenced you in some ways too.
broaden your thinking too, to not be too narrow.
Alison Gretz (23:19.34)
Well, I think it helped me also make this leap into independent solopreneurship entrepreneurship because I was eyes wide open into needing to do a little finance and what about sales and how about marketing and yes, there is UX design and pulling out my coaching skills and all of these things. And I also knew like, hey, for the finance thing, that's not my jam. So hire an expert, hire people to help you.
do the things that you're not good at, which is the same philosophy I took when leading and building teams is like, hey, if I don't know this and there's no faking it till you make it, how are you thinking about constructing the team around you to be the best team versus, you know, what I see some people do is like, you know, they have to feel senior. And so they hire people they can teach, which is lovely in some ways. But I love to hire people who are just better than me at all the things.
Kristiana Corona (24:11.17)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (24:19.287)
Yes.
Alison Gretz (24:20.013)
and then we were discussing before the show, that I can just show up and they've guided me and I can just do my thing while relying on each of their strengths and skill sets.
Kristiana Corona (24:29.932)
Yeah. And then it allows you to really live into your strengths differently, right? Like rather than trying to force yourself to try and be everything to everyone, you have this inner circle. I like to think about an inner circle or a front row or, you know, this group of people who can like amplify your impact and they all have a different set of skills. Like they all have different things that help to deploy some of these strategies or help make you even more effective in your, in your role. And the sooner you learn,
to develop that team for yourself, the more you start to really think at that higher leadership level. So I love that. And speaking of higher leadership levels, mean, we talk really, it's awesome to think about the breadth and to encourage people to explore widely, right? But you also have
Alison Gretz (25:07.043)
Mm
Kristiana Corona (25:25.654)
gone through sort of the ladder in a way. You have accomplished different levels of leadership from director to vice president and so on, which is really amazing. So I'm curious, are there any like principles, guiding principles or things that you held onto as you continued to go up into a larger and larger and more impactful leadership role to not lose that part of yourself along the way?
Alison Gretz (25:48.91)
Yeah.
I mean, the one that pops into my head right away is empathy, which has always been in my strength finders top five. It kind of explains why UX was such an interesting place for me to play in. And when I started taking on teams that were like close to 100 people, right, and I would have layers of management, sure, but 100 people, it was still so important to me, even at a VP level to know who they were.
Right? Like who are you as a human? How do we make your experience on this team while you're here kick ass as kick ass as it can be? How do we make sure that there's win -wins that you're learning something that's going to be really valuable to you in your career and that we're setting you up for success for whatever that next thing is, even if you're here for 30 years, that you're always being set up for success. And so that started to look like, you know, a real
Kristiana Corona (26:20.962)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (26:50.415)
pretty rigorous organizational way of making sure I had skip levels and office hours and checking in with people or having coffee with groups of people, for example, just to be available to them and stay connected to what was going on in my team, bridge any transparency gaps or miscommunications, and just really be accessible and transparent.
Kristiana Corona (27:05.506)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (27:18.095)
Cause I've always liked to make sure people realize like, even if my title is VP, I'm still just a human. Like I'm just a human here doing the things.
Kristiana Corona (27:25.16)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (27:29.742)
As much as I am Beyonce, I'm still a human.
Alison Gretz (27:32.511)
yeah, I mean, I Beyonce has like people I didn't really, you know, I had my leadership teams, a band of like diverse folks, but yeah, Beyonce still talks to people.
Kristiana Corona (27:36.867)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (27:47.018)
She's still got a team. Yeah. And there's, I think that's awesome. Just like continuing to make sure that people get the authentic version of you. Like you're not suddenly someone else. You're not putting on a show. You're not the HR version of Alison. That's like super vanilla and like can't be who you are anymore. Right. But I think it's lovely because
Alison Gretz (27:57.88)
Right.
Alison Gretz (28:04.621)
I don't think that version of me ever existed, much to the chagrin of my HR partners.
Kristiana Corona (28:12.642)
How refreshing is it, you know, when you have a senior leader on a team and they just are who they are. They're not putting on a show and you're just like, huh, I can really relate to you. Like I can really, I know that if I talk to you, you're going to be the same person, whether you're presenting on a stage or whether we're talking in a one
Alison Gretz (28:24.463)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (28:32.717)
Yeah, yeah. And I really, I believe that most of my teams and people on my teams felt that I really hope everybody did, because there really isn't multiple versions of Alison. And, you know, we could call that a strength or a weakness, because sometimes it's like, no, maybe you shouldn't have said that that way, you know, but you always know what you're going to get. And you know, that I'm speaking from a place of truth and candor, which is really important to me.
Kristiana Corona (28:39.544)
Mm -hmm.
you
Kristiana Corona (28:46.456)
you
Kristiana Corona (28:58.786)
Yeah. Yeah. I think net net it's a really, really awesome thing. And, you know, we talk about, we talk about things, you know, like leaders we admire and the types of qualities that they have, but then there's also leaders we don't admire or maybe do more harm than good. And we've all had a bad manager at some point in our career. And I feel like we do learn as much from them about what we don't want to be as we learned from the good leaders.
Alison Gretz (29:03.449)
things.
Alison Gretz (29:20.43)
Yep.
Kristiana Corona (29:28.128)
So maybe just transitioning topics a little bit, like what are some of the behaviors that you see most often from leaders that they should try to avoid? Like things that kind of create toxicity or like a dysfunctional workplace.
Alison Gretz (29:41.667)
Yeah, I mean, it's so true. We've all had bad bosses and people tend to leave bad bosses versus bad jobs because our boss has more impact on our mental health and wellbeing and our engagement at work than really anything else. And this relationship is really critical to all of us on a day -to -day basis. And so, I mean, I've had bosses who have really ranged the gamut and
something I've noticed, not just from bosses, but peers and stakeholders and other people being bosses in the workplace is, you know, any lack of authenticity. I think authenticity is a spectrum, but when you're having to navigate which part of the truth did I say to what person and how much do I disclose versus sort of gatekeep, that always backfires, right? And I think
Kristiana Corona (30:31.222)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (30:37.775)
people who do that either from like needing to have a sense of control or maybe even a sort of perception that they're saving their team from information, you know, by protecting that information or wanting to be too perfect about it. That tends to just drum up more rumors and people comparing what message did you get versus I got, what are they talking about? Why did they lie? Like it's a very slippery.
Kristiana Corona (30:50.904)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (30:59.02)
Mm
you
Alison Gretz (31:06.221)
slippery, slippery slope. So like that balance of transparency and kind of progressive disclosure with information when it's like right and helpful, but you can't protect people from just the realities of an organization. These are smart people. So I watch out for that. The other thing and I think this is a toxic leadership trait that I've had in the past is when you try to do it all yourself.
Kristiana Corona (31:07.502)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (31:23.756)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (31:32.12)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (31:32.269)
and you're like over -functioning, over -functioning, over -functioning, right? Like we need a support group.
Kristiana Corona (31:35.948)
I think we can all, we can all admit to that one.
Alison Gretz (31:39.775)
Right? Or you think, so and so is too busy. So I'm just going to keep this to myself. I'll do this. I'll do this. I'll do this. And then all of a sudden, you're tired, you're burnt out, you're resenting people around you for not helping more. Right? I think that can be a very difficult trait for leaders to shake. And it goes back to training, right? If we learn how to delegate really effectively, and how to make sure we're working and communicating at kind of the right altitude for our position.
If we learn these skills and spend time intentionally building and designing our own leadership systems, then we can avoid that toxic trait. What's an example you have of a toxic trait you've bumped into in a leader?
Kristiana Corona (32:19.502)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (32:25.976)
think one that I don't know that people understand quite how toxic it can create a culture around it, but like the idea of having to have all decisions made by one person and they are the gatekeeper. So they get to hold the keys, the magical keys to deciding everything. And I'm not talking about like the highest, most leader there is. I'm talking about people in between, like at different levels where
You are completely limiting the empowerment of the team by always having to review, always having to run everything by every layer. And then everyone needs to add value, right? Like they need to say, well, I don't like it because, and then they'll give you 10 things they don't like because they want to add value and yeah, and show that they're an expert. just the, the amount of extra stress and work and you know, chronic fatigue that's caused by
Alison Gretz (33:13.293)
go back to square one. Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (33:25.288)
cycling through and through and through and through, instead of just making a decision and then empowering the team to go for it. You know, it just drags things out and makes them much more painful than they need to be. So I don't know, that there's a one way to get around that, but I think that creating a culture where you're empowering your team to hold high standards, where you're empowering, you know, more than one person to be able to make a decision about anything, can just be like a complete unlock in.
efficiency and effectiveness and then also people just feeling like they can move forward, like they're not completely bottlenecked.
Alison Gretz (33:59.831)
Yeah, that's really a lose lose situation because then the leader is busier and busier and busier as well. And what happens in that kind of environment is people become progressively more and more afraid to make their own decisions because ultimately they will get undone. And that's really hard to rebuild. I mean, that kind of damage to a culture and even damage to an individual's sense of agency and autonomy that has very widespread
Kristiana Corona (34:14.456)
Yes.
Alison Gretz (34:29.539)
reaches, right, and can go way beyond the workplace in terms of causing harm to that person. The other one is worth mentioning is lack of compassionate candor. And you know, I'm a huge Kim Scott fan who originally wrote Radical Candor. Check out the framework, right, which is like, hey, radical candor has a basis in compassion and true caring. That's the whole point.
Kristiana Corona (34:36.493)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (34:43.939)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (34:58.722)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (34:59.043)
but you're also actually speaking the truth in a clearly communicated manner. But the person receiving that knows that you care deeply, right? And the opposite is just obnoxious aggression or manipulation where we don't like working for those people. So we don't want to be those people. Those are the bosses we can really easily identify as like, was a terrible boss.
Kristiana Corona (35:05.122)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (35:09.976)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (35:20.075)
Hahaha
You
Kristiana Corona (35:28.323)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (35:28.685)
I think even the most well -meaning people have such a hard time giving really clear, actionable, understandable feedback that they end up sitting in this other quadrant that Kim's identified as ruinous empathy. And then all of a sudden, you could be the most well -meaning boss ever, but if you're not providing your team member with an unlock piece of feedback that you know is getting in their way while they're pursuing promotion,
Kristiana Corona (35:38.531)
Yes.
Kristiana Corona (35:44.14)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (35:57.997)
all of these things, the time you are wasting for that individual. And they're probably thinking, I'm doing great. My boss is so supportive of this path to promotion or the stretch assignment, whatever it is, when ultimately they're not actually supportive. They're just not telling them what is actually going on. And I see that to be so harmful just because of the amount of time I've seen people waste.
Kristiana Corona (36:02.071)
Mm
Kristiana Corona (36:23.63)
Yeah. And then how awful it feels when someone else delivers that feedback and you're like, why didn't anyone tell me? Why? Why didn't anyone say anything? Why didn't my leader say anything to me that this was getting in my way?
Alison Gretz (36:30.979)
Yes.
Alison Gretz (36:34.957)
Yep. Yep. Shouldn't they be looking out for me? Shouldn't they be investing in my growth? Can I trust them? Right. What else are they not saying?
Kristiana Corona (36:39.171)
Yeah. Can I, can I trust them? Are they, are they sugar coating everything else? What, what's true? You know, like it makes you exactly. Yeah. So, okay. Let's say people can maybe sort of raise their hand on some of these things. Maybe I'm implicitly doing these things. Like I'm not trying to, I'm trying to be the best boss I can. I'm not trying to be a bully, but like, maybe there's a behavior or two in here that people can identify for themselves.
Alison Gretz (36:59.543)
Orderly.
Kristiana Corona (37:07.458)
I guess what advice would you give to help them start taking steps in the right direction?
Alison Gretz (37:12.811)
Yeah, mean, awareness is always first, right? So bravo on being self aware to realize, I might have that tendency. That's a huge step to just be open to sort of self critique and self feedback and to start really seeing what maybe something you can prove upon is it's another muscle to build. So yes, you may have just listened to us and said, my gosh, I've got all four of those toxic traits.
each of those is something that can be worked on and changed. So once you've become aware of it, I would start to notice how is it showing up? When is it showing up? Who is it showing up with? And what am I actually trying to protect? What am I actually afraid of? What do I think will happen if I continue to take this action that's maybe causing the toxicity?
And then I would start to seek out experts and training or try to build those muscles in any way you can. Maybe you find a mentor who has like the opposite trait and does, it's like a new model for you and you're like, hey, I want to be a bit more your flavor of leadership and a little bit less this flavor of leadership. You know, there's so many ways, but I think once you become aware of it, you can start to then make change.
Kristiana Corona (38:18.38)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (38:35.861)
I love starting every week with like, hey, what's my intention this week? How do I want to show up as a leader? How do I want other people to experience me? And what's the biggest impact I want to have on the business this week? And so I think if you are noticing you have a toxic trait that you want to start to work on and improve and even turn into a positive trait, I would start checking in with yourself every week or at the end of the day on Friday and reflect like,
Kristiana Corona (38:36.011)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (39:04.448)
Mm
Alison Gretz (39:04.481)
When did I seem to really upset people? What am I noticing about the people around me? Can I pay more attention to people's body language? When they stop talking? Who's not contributing? You know, how is trust doing in my culture? And how am I contributing to that? I think all of these as leaders are good interrogations that we have to give ourselves.
Kristiana Corona (39:22.242)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (39:27.798)
Yeah, and I like the rhythm behind that sort of having those check -ins regularly to see, I making progress in this area? Do I feel like I need to have more intentional focus on some of those things? Like I have a similar practice, but it's kind of like a mini daily affirmations or daily questions that I'll ask myself early in the morning, just as I'm getting ready about my intention for the day or what is the most important thing for that day or
Alison Gretz (39:31.565)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (39:57.346)
who needs me the most today. And, you know, like there's gonna be so much distraction and so much noise and there's always gonna be competing priorities. But if you have those intentions for your day or your week and you can think about that, like you said, you can become more aware and then start to intentionally change your behaviors or even better to know you have a really tough meeting coming up and say beforehand, I am intentionally planning to show up this way and it's gonna be hard, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
Alison Gretz (40:08.815)
Mm
Alison Gretz (40:26.519)
Yeah, yeah. No, you just walk in. Right? Yeah, I I think as well, one of the other questions I asked myself every Monday is, how's my energy? What do I need this week to proactively nurture my energy so that I can show up the way I want to?
Kristiana Corona (40:27.532)
Because otherwise you wouldn't do that, right? Like you would just go into the meeting and react, right? Yeah. So, okay. go ahead.
Kristiana Corona (40:46.935)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (40:54.093)
And I think in times of stress, it's so difficult to take that minute and kind of just check in. How's your body? How's your mind? How you doing? What do you need this week so that you have the ability to show up? And so on a Monday, if I'm asking myself those questions and on a Thursday, I have a meeting with our CEO and the board, I can know, hey, that's on Thursday, Wednesday, I probably shouldn't have eight back -to -back one -on -ones because I am gonna be depleted.
Kristiana Corona (41:20.266)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (41:22.893)
Right? And you can kind of make sure that your calendar really reflects what your priorities need to be and what your energy is going to need for those big moments where you have to be really purposeful. I love that so much, like that concept of kind of designing your time around energy, that it's one of the things I include in my manager foundations course, because we have to learn to do our time differently and think about how we are using our time differently when we do that first step up into management.
Kristiana Corona (41:43.267)
Hmm.
Kristiana Corona (41:53.619)
Hmm. I love that. and I think there's, okay. So one of the things I should call out to you and the reason why I think we are so on the same page on a lot of this is because a lot of this has a foundation in coaching, right? And you and I have both explored that as part of our leadership journey. I know you are accredited by the ICF, as am I and
Alison Gretz (42:06.456)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (42:13.764)
Mm -hmm.
Kristiana Corona (42:15.352)
Coaching plays such an important role in emotional intelligence and really helping us to be impactful leaders. So I would love if you could just share a little bit about how executive and life coaching have played a role in your development as a leader.
Alison Gretz (42:30.817)
my gosh, yes. And I think I've worked with coaches that have had a huge impact on my leadership. And so just thank you to them if they ever happen to be listening to this. But then I think learning to be a coach, and this was something I it took me so long to go through a program and get accredited because I was doing it as I was leading, and then just immediately applying it. And that that shift from having all the answers
Kristiana Corona (42:41.161)
Ha
Alison Gretz (42:58.287)
to asking great questions that help people move things along, that ultimately build more agency and self -confidence and decision -making abilities and trust from your team. That just helped me scale beyond belief as a leader, as well as help me tune in to some of those things like what's actually going on in the space? Like what's the energy? Who's...
having conflict that's going unsaid, what do I need to kind of tackle here in service of both the work and the team? And coaching has helped me do that while also not taking as much of that on as somebody who's highly empathetic. Because ultimately the coach is the guide and it's really up to every, it's up to your client to make important decisions and to choose what they're going to do next or
Kristiana Corona (43:30.53)
Mm
Alison Gretz (43:54.947)
where they want to go next, even in a coaching agreement or a coaching set of sessions. And it could be the only place and time that those people are getting to make their own decisions and being the CEO of themselves. And for some people that can get really uncomfortable. I weirdly love sitting in that discomfort and helping people realize and reclaim their own agency.
Kristiana Corona (43:58.637)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (44:07.778)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (44:22.519)
And then they can step back into the workplace. I think I've rambled away off your question, but they can then step back into the workplace with more confidence as a leader who has more worth, self worthiness, and doesn't need much from other people to have a point of view, come into a workplace, get stuff done, and lead a much healthier team than they would have otherwise. I think every leader should be a coach, and almost mandatory coaching training.
Kristiana Corona (44:29.048)
Great.
Kristiana Corona (44:48.846)
Mm -hmm. I 100 % agree. 100 % agree. And I love the phrase that you used, like being the CEO of yourself and what that means and the ownership that you can feel and what that releases for you as far as meeting other people's expectations or the world's definition of success. Like if you are the CEO of yourself, you get to set your measures for success.
Alison Gretz (45:09.412)
Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (45:17.76)
You get to set the vision for your life. You get to define who you want to be and live into that identity differently, right?
Alison Gretz (45:24.377)
Yeah. And if not you then who? Right? Who are you allowing to be the CEO of your life? Shudder.
Kristiana Corona (45:26.966)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (45:34.31)
I feel like I'm just getting tingles all over, just like thinking about all of this. this is good. okay. So these topics, I think just coaching and learning how to be a good human and a good manager. I mean, a lot of this has been about, not doing it all yourself and, and help getting help, getting resources, learning from experts, right? and you know, you are one those experts that I think is.
Alison Gretz (45:39.768)
I know, it's a lot.
Kristiana Corona (46:03.274)
So amazing and I would just love it if you could share with my listeners just a little bit more about like your good manager operating system and some of the other resources that you have like if they really want to dive into this more.
Alison Gretz (46:16.055)
Yeah. I mean, I mentioned earlier, I'm a maker, I'm a builder. And one of my favorite things the past year has actually both falling in love with this space that we've been talking about, but then trying to be of service and create things that make stepping into management safer for you and your teams that you end up taking on. And so I'm in development with a few beta users of something I'm calling the good manager operating system.
It's a dynamic notion template that helps people create just the right amount of structure for them to be leading their teams, reduce toxic activities and increase like healthy team collaboration. So it's a different way of partnering with your team members on one -on -ones on annual reviews alongside whatever system you're using in your workplace. So that's the good manager operating system. And you can get more info on that at
designbydesign .co. And on there, you'll also see links to my two courses that I've been selling this year. I have a manager foundations course, and then I have a design leader accelerator. I wish I'd called it an incubator, but now all the URLs are out there in the world. Because we spend eight weeks together really developing a more mature approach to leadership and specific to design research content.
Kristiana Corona (47:27.963)
you
Alison Gretz (47:41.955)
And we look at the major pitfalls I've seen a lot of design leaders make as they're attempting to rise to the next level or be given more stretch assignments. We interrogate what rising to the next level even means and is that really what you want as well? But we look at things like true stakeholder relationships. We look at conflict mediation. We look at strategic, bigger thinking, like things that are really in the way of people.
Kristiana Corona (48:10.797)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (48:12.085)
moving to whatever is next for them in their careers, whether that's upwards or sideways, or some people have honestly decided to do totally new career things coming out of it as well.
Kristiana Corona (48:22.316)
Yeah. I've heard really great things about that program and just the impact that it's having. I think it's amazing that you put that together. And then the manager course, is that also just for design? Is that for different disciplines? Like who is the right audience for that?
Alison Gretz (48:41.059)
Honestly, I think anyone who works connected to product tech design sort of spheres will feel very much at home. We do like I use the word design to describe almost like any intentional decision, right? So we re -architect your week and how you're spending your time. I start with a tool called the manager profile where it really looks at some of those softer skills that we don't learn along the way.
as individual contributors and use it as a way to create almost a gap analysis that you can then get your boss to provide an opinion on too and see, just spark a really great conversation about that and get conversations of support going as you step into management. Some folks who've come through the past couple of cohorts are considering, is management even right for me? And this gives them a little bit of a glimpse into some of those shifts that they'll have to make.
Kristiana Corona (49:21.156)
Cool.
Kristiana Corona (49:39.437)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (49:39.459)
so that they can interrogate, is this the right thing for me, but in a very safe, supportive environment. And hear from peers who are also having those thoughts and transition moments.
Kristiana Corona (49:51.67)
Yeah. Well, and it sounds like, it allows you the grace to be able to learn all the things you don't know that you need to know, before you do them. And then to be able to make a more confident and conscious decision. cause like you said, there's so many places where you don't get to glimpse what all of the best practices or what all the things that managers have to do until you actually are in the role. And then you're like, Whoa, this is totally different. So I love that you're helping to bridge that gap.
Alison Gretz (49:58.681)
Mm -hmm.
Alison Gretz (50:04.265)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Alison Gretz (50:16.387)
Yeah. Yeah.
I really want to and I think each of those things we just talked about the good manager operating system to leadership accelerator and the manager foundations. All of them are doing that. I'm hoping to bridge a training gap. I'm hoping to help people get to where they want to go with more ease and more grace and less stress. And I'm also trying to pull back the curtain on like corporate jargon and all the stuff that kind of gets in the way of
Kristiana Corona (50:42.434)
Mm.
Alison Gretz (50:50.029)
somebody enjoying their work and enjoying their career and being, as we've now coined it, we need to trademark it, being the CEO of their life. And so I really, I love reconnecting with my students from like a year ago, from the very, very first course and just hearing where they are on their journeys and seeing that inherent like agency and confidence to become the CEO of what they're doing alongside
Kristiana Corona (50:59.832)
Yeah.
Alison Gretz (51:19.843)
gaining all of these extra skills and resources and the shortcuts that I hope I'm putting out there for people to choose.
Kristiana Corona (51:29.1)
Yeah. Well, there's certainly a lot of confidence to be gained from learning from an expert, learning from a curriculum, like just taking an extra step and, you know, really assessing a lot of these things in advance. So hopefully there's some folks out there who might find this helpful. And, you know, for anybody, whether or not you want a course or any kind of tools, like what would be the best place for people to follow you and just kind of
hear from you regularly or maybe get some inspiration here and there. Like what channels are you on?
Alison Gretz (52:02.637)
Yeah, you know, mainly LinkedIn, honestly. So come, you know, you can connect with me, you can follow me, just start a chitchat. That tends to be the place that I'm most active on the day to day basis. I also have an email list. So you can join that from my website, designbydesign .co. And that is really, it's totally value based. I'm not spamming anyone. It's when I have something that I think will be of interest or of help.
I provide tools and articles and things to help people go deeper into everything we've been talking about today. Just on that email list, I say every other week -ish, which is a good reminder to myself that I probably am due one this week. Time for an email if I have something of value to say.
Kristiana Corona (52:47.298)
Time for an email. And then you also do some one -on -one coaching as well, Okay.
Alison Gretz (52:56.523)
I do. And you can tell I've got such a little portfolio, or it's not a little portfolio. I've got this awesome portfolio of experiences that I'm having right now. My one -on -one sort of high touch coaching absolutely is available. And I have a couple of people pairing it with a course as well, which has been a really nice, it's almost like a really good wine and cheese pairing. You know? Yeah.
Kristiana Corona (53:14.636)
Mmm, that's amazing.
I love it. love it. Yeah, because then you can really go deeper on the topics that you're learning about and really help through the analysis. Yeah, that's great.
Alison Gretz (53:26.593)
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think coaching should, I hope coaching is something that folks think of when they're about to go into a big transition or they're tired of getting the same feedback over and over again and don't know what to do about it. Like coaching is such an amazing tool to tap into, to get unstuck. And there's so many amazing coaches out there in the world that have all sorts of different expertise that then
you don't need to sort of shortcut or you don't have to explain all the ins and outs of what you're dealing with every day to coaches.
Kristiana Corona (54:05.452)
Yeah, yeah, beautiful. So, Alison, I think you mentioned that you have another cohort coming up for one of your courses, the Leadership Accelerator for Design. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Alison Gretz (00:13.016)
Yeah, we start on September 16th with a kickoff and then we meet weekly after that for eight weeks, digging into each module of the course and just having time together as a community. I do coaching prompts, we have some breakout sessions and some workshop stuff. So it's a once a week commitment and then asynchronous learning. So you can dive into it at your own pace. You also have lifetime access. So if you
You know, have big client meetings one week and you need to catch up. You can kind of come in and out as you need to and dig in on the topics that are most meaningful for you and then know that all of the tools are in your toolbox for your lifetime.
Kristiana Corona (00:54.294)
Love it. So if someone is interested in taking this accelerator, where do they go to sign up for that?
Alison Gretz (01:01.966)
Yeah, you can get more details on my website, designbydesign .co, or you can check out its maven .com, which is where all of my courses are. And there's lots of other courses too that you can peruse and look through. And what makes Maven different is it's real people who are still hands -on in their disciplines and learning and who are teaching really relevant and recent things in product, text, design, engineering.
Kristiana Corona (01:31.084)
That's amazing. if they sign up for this, they would get not only like recorded sessions, but actually live teachings from you as well. Amazing.
Alison Gretz (01:38.924)
Yeah, yeah. thank you. That's such a great pump because I think what does make it different is it's a cohort. So you're getting to know a group of people. Great networking too because it's folks I've had international but it tends to be a lot of people in North America from all sorts of different companies. I've had people from Netflix, Amazon, Google, Microsoft startups, agencies, you name it. And it tends to be a mix of disciplines too. So
Designers, yes, but also research leaders who want to become design leaders or content designers who are.
Kristiana Corona (02:13.249)
Hmm.
Alison Gretz (02:17.77)
or content designers who are also striving to take on more and more broad leadership beyond that discipline, which I'm a huge support of.
Kristiana Corona (02:26.966)
That's amazing. So you said that's in two weeks. So they need to kind of get on that. Perfect.
Alison Gretz (02:30.234)
Yeah, it's only two weeks away. September 15. Get on that. Definitely hit me up on LinkedIn about that too. If you have any questions, I'm happy to just chat about it as well. This will be the last cohort that I run this year of that as well. So September 16 is the last chance to get on a cohort before the end of the year.
Kristiana Corona (02:46.966)
Mm.
Kristiana Corona (02:51.572)
Okay, perfect. Hopefully everybody wrote that down. If not, I will include all this information in the show notes. So don't worry. I will make sure that you get ahold of that and can take advantage of that.
Alison Gretz (02:57.668)
Thank you.
Alison Gretz (03:03.29)
Yeah, absolutely. And you know what? If you use code worthy, W -O -R -T -H -Y, you'll get 10 % off that design leadership accelerator that starts on the 16th of September. So that's code worthy on the landing page and you get a nice 10 % off.
Kristiana Corona (06:43.222)
And that's on maven .com where they would go in and they would find your course and then put in the code worthy.
Alison Gretz (06:45.274)
Thank
Alison Gretz (06:49.912)
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you a special URL for your show notes as well. So folks can just get there from the show as well.
Kristiana Corona (06:56.258)
Perfect. Okay, I'm excited. Thank you. This'll be great.
Alison Gretz (06:59.106)
Yeah you're welcome all this podcast has been such a delight to have in my commute so if i'm ever going to my co working space or dropping kids off and i've been learning things along the way and it's exciting to see all the different guests that you're bringing in.
Kristiana Corona (07:14.803)
Thank you. I appreciate that. And we're so fortunate to have you, so thank you for taking time out of your day to be here. Appreciate you. Bye.
Alison Gretz (07:21.966)
Thanks for having me. Bye.
---
Kristiana Corona (01:17.475)
Hey everybody, thank you so much for sticking around for this episode of the Worthy to Lead podcast. I had so much fun interviewing Alison Gretz and hopefully you found a few options or concepts within this episode that were inspiring for you. So a few of the things that really stood out to me about this conversation were, you know, really leaning into being a good leader and a good human is kind of the core of everything, right? So battling workplace toxicity,
by bringing your authentic self and really knowing who you are and what you want and what kind of track or what kind of path that you see for yourself as a leader. A lot of these things just help you to disrupt some of those disempowering behaviors that maybe you're doing on purpose or maybe you're doing, you know, by accident. The better you know yourself and the more authentic you can be in your role, the better you can show up for others.
Another thing that I really took away was this idea of a career playground. So for many of you, you know, you have this singular view of promotion and going straight up and here's the ladder. I need to climb it in order, but you know, Alison's career journey and a lot of the things that she was talking about today really disrupt that notion, right? Like just, it doesn't have to be a straight up. doesn't have to be a straight line at all. In fact, there's so much value in exploring.
broadly, exploring laterally, trying completely different things and putting yourself outside your comfort zone. Because all of those things help you become a more confident person, a more confident leader. And then also they help you have empathy for other people as you continue to climb that, that ladder at some point or change your role or become more of a subject matter expert in your role. can really understand other people's points of view differently.
And then the third piece there that I loved that we kind of ended on was coaching and how important it is to take intentional moments to pause and reflect and really build awareness of our own behavior. And so this is something both Alison and I feel very passionately about. And, you know, this can really help you to discover the opportunities that you want to focus on, but also to go inward and to say, I am the CEO of myself.
I love that phrase that she came up with and the importance of measuring success on our own terms. So not measuring the success the way that your company says you should or that society says you should or your family or your friends or your neighbors. But really what does it mean to be the CEO of your own life and what kind of decisions do you want to make to align to being the person that you want to be?
Take advantage of Alison's tools and resources. She's got some really amazing stuff. and all of that is on design by design .co. And again, a lot of these resources are actually not just for design leaders, they're for any leaders. And so, like the good manager operating system and the manager foundation training, those are great resources for anyone in any role. so definitely check those out.
specifically for design leaders, if you are looking to accelerate your growth and your learning and your role, Alison's cohort cohort starts in two weeks. And this is going to be a great opportunity for you again, to take that focused time to really develop yourself. So you've got two weeks to get in. I will share the link to her special discount code to make sure that you get that 10 % off for being a worthy to lead podcast listener.
Don't worry if you weren't able to catch all of the notes and all of the resources here. I, of course, will be posting these in our show notes and the show notes you can be, the show notes can be accessed at worthytoleadpodcast.com/10. And that's the number 10.
If you're enjoying this podcast, don't forget to subscribe so that you get all the new episodes as I release them. You can subscribe at worthy to lead podcast .com / subscribe. And don't forget to share this with friends or leaders in your life who need to hear these messages. With that, I wish you the best on your journey towards becoming the worthy leaders that I know you are. Bye for now.
